[forum] Re: Fabricated responses

Alexander Terekhov forum@xfree86.org
Mon, 05 Apr 2004 12:09:02 +0200


Richard Stallman wrote:
> 
>     > Eben Moglen wrote to me, about those quotations:
>     >
>     >     It's clearly a fabrication.
> 
>     Really? How fascinating.
> 
>     http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/asay-paper.pdf
> 
> I've been reminded that that essay garbled things.
> (I have no personal recollection of it myself.)

And, of course, both you and Eben have lost all emails 
from May 26, 2000, and May 27, 2000, respectively. Right?

> It looks like you have come across some of what was garbled.

Like this? <chuckles>

http://web.archive.org/web/20030726041121/http://www.oksid.ch/license/rms.html

---
Here is a copy of a discussion that I had with RMS about the GPL. 
This was a private discussion, because RMS has rejected my proposal to talk about it on gnu.misc.discuss. 
That's the reason why I have removed all RMS's answers. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From - Fri Feb 28 13:38:08 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:46:14 +0100
From: Jean-Marc Lienher 
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Hello,

I would like to have your opinion about this article :
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366

The official FSF's opinion is "OSI is wrong".

Do you have a personal opinion about that ?
Maybe can we talk about it on gnu.misc.discuss ?

Best regards,
	Jean-Marc
-- 
http://www.oksid.ch
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:39:04 2003
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From: Richard Stallman 
To: Jean-Marc Lienher 
In-reply-to: <3E526356.C729BA71@bluewin.ch> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on
	Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:46:14 +0100)
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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    I would like to have your opinion about this article :
    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366

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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:40:07 2003
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Richard Stallman a écrit :
> 
>     I would like to have your opinion about this article :
>     http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366
> 
> Line removed
Here it is:

copy of the full plain text linuxjournal's article removed


-- 
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:41:00 2003
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From: Richard Stallman 
To: oksid@bluewin.ch
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:42:03 2003
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:32:50 +0100
From: Jean-Marc Lienher 
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Richard Stallman a écrit :
> 
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Yes I agree that's true for static linking.
But what about dynamic linking ?
A dynamically compiled program is not a combined work until it runs.

-- 
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:42:44 2003
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From: Richard Stallman 
To: Jean-Marc Lienher 
In-reply-to: <3E547692.5A23BB69@bluewin.ch> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on
	Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:32:50 +0100)
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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    Yes I agree that's true for static linking.
    But what about dynamic linking ?

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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:43:20 2003
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Richard Stallman a écrit :
> 
>     Yes I agree that's true for static linking.
>     But what about dynamic linking ?
> 
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With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to
make the linking. The end user can write his own library which
is compatible with the GPL library.

> 
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Do you mean that FAQ ? :
------------------------------------------------------------------
If a library is released under the GPL (not the LGPL), does that mean
that any program which uses it has to be
under the GPL?

      Yes, because the program as it is actually run includes the
library. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand it. I don't see anything in the GPL that says
that I can't distribute a work which contains no portion of the
GPL library. Is this an implicit rule of copyright law ?


-- 
http://www.oksid.ch
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:44:03 2003
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From: Richard Stallman 
To: Jean-Marc Lienher 
In-reply-to: <3E575192.8BAA35CE@bluewin.ch> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on
	Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:31:46 +0100)
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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    > Line removed
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    With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to
    make the linking.

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		      The end user can write his own library which
    is compatible with the GPL library.

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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:44:31 2003
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Richard Stallman a écrit :
> 
>     > Line removed
>     > Line removed
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> 
>     With dynamic linking it's allways the end user who decides to
>     make the linking.
> 
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The end user can allways decide to not run the program.

I've searched for "combined" in the copyright law and I've not
found it (except for audio devices).
In the LGPL you define "a combined work" as  "a derivative of the
original library".
When you say combined should I understand derivative ?

> 
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That one ?:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program?
...
If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls
to each other and share data
structures, we believe they form a single program, so plug-ins must be
treated as extensions to the
main program. This means that linking the GPL-covered plug-in with the
main program would violate the
GPL.
...
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ?
Does it mean that Microsoft, Sun, HP, SGI ... can forbid
a program on their OS if they don't like it ?

A dynamic program forms a single program only when the user runs it.
The user doesn't distribute it in that form. And with the GPL
you must release a program under the GPL only if you distribute it.
The end user doesn't violate the GPL.
And the author of the program doesn't violate the GPL too, because
he doesn't distribute any portion of the library inside his program.


In that article you said that you have a good argument to say
that dynamic linking creates a combined work:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/01/1052216&mode=nocomment

Is this the one in the FAQ about plug-in ?

You also said that :
A license can say that we will treat a certain kind of work as 
if it were not derivative, even if the courts think it is. 

The GPL says :
-----------------------------------------------
a "work based on the Program"
means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law:
that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it,
either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another
language.
--------------------------------------------------

It seems that the GPL treats a program which doesn't contain
any portion of a GPL library as if it was not derivative.
At least, for a non-lawyer it makes things clear that a derivative
work must contain a portion of a library to be derivative.

-- 
http://www.oksid.ch
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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:45:19 2003
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In-reply-to: <3E592EE9.1AF84850@bluewin.ch> (message from Jean-Marc Lienher on
	Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:28:25 +0100)
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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    The end user can allways decide to not run the program.

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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:45:35 2003
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	Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:28:25 +0100)
Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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    That one ?:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program?
    ...
    If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls
    to each other and share data


    Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ?

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>From - Fri Feb 28 13:46:10 2003
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From: Jean-Marc Lienher 
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Subject: Re: OSI attacks GPL
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Richard Stallman a écrit :
> 
>     That one ?:
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Can I use the GPL for a plug-in for a non-free program?
>     ...
>     If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls
>     to each other and share data
> 
>     Does it mean that all Solaris programs are copyrighted by SUN ?
> 
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> 
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You confirm what I'm thinking : you don't have any valid arguments.

-- 
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the end of the discussion since RMS has let it drop. 
---

regards,
alexander.